basalt fibre - new material for me

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nils
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basalt fibre - new material for me

Postby nils » Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:32 pm

Has anyone here tried basalt fibre instead glass and carbon?
I got a example piece and now I think what to do with it.
I read that it is in use in real spacecrafts but is it somehow usable in hobby rocketry?

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Re: basalt fibre - new material for me

Postby SpaceManMat » Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:10 am

A quick read on Wikipedia, seems it should be fine.
Looks around the same density as fibre glass but has superior properties, typically comes with a finer weave cloth.
Apparently not as good as carbon fibre though.

Guess if you wanted to take advantage of its properties you would make thin wall tubes.
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Re: basalt fibre - new material for me

Postby nils » Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:21 pm

I think I will try this piece of basalt fibre cloth on my next rear ejection rocket.
This fibre itself is much more heat resistant than glass and carbon but can anyone recommend me some very heat resistant epoxy?

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Re: basalt fibre - new material for me

Postby OverTheTop » Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:39 pm

How about this stuff. Used a lot in rocketry in the USA.
https://www.cotronics.com/vo/cotr/

Cotronicscrop.png
Cotronicscrop.png (179.61 KiB) Viewed 102 times


Not sure how easy it is to get here.

Let me know if you are ordering something, we might be able to split the postage costs. I might get some stuff for leading-edge protection, but I need a little time to research it.
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Re: basalt fibre - new material for me

Postby nils » Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:14 pm

I tried to burn glass and basalt with gas torch. Here are the results:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=007KI1q7uWo

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Re: basalt fibre - new material for me

Postby nils » Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:38 am

Maybe one day I'll make this kind of "tailcone fins tube launched rocket" and maybe I will use basalt fibre for fins:
Image

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Re: basalt fibre - new material for me

Postby SpaceManMat » Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:38 am

Don’t think you’ll have issues with flame reaching the fine with that design. If you did the limiting factor would be the resin not the cloth.
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Re: basalt fibre - new material for me

Postby High Impulse » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:10 pm

Just add a ceramic coating to the fins, with a low enough thermal product you could delay any heat penetration to the composite fins until the flight has been completed.That way no need for expensive resins like PEEK or BSI, instead you could get away with some kind of slurry mixture. You'll take a hit in skin friction but its totally worth it.
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Re: basalt fibre - new material for me

Postby OverTheTop » Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:03 am

High Impulse wrote:Just add a ceramic coating to the fins, with a low enough thermal product you could delay any heat penetration to the composite fins until the flight has been completed.That way no need for expensive resins like PEEK or BSI, instead you could get away with some kind of slurry mixture. You'll take a hit in skin friction but its totally worth it.

Any suggestions for coatings there HI? I am building a couple of rockets for the Mach 2+ area (I hope) so I'm considering what I might coat the leading edges with. I suspect I am not going to need anything too special at that speed.
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Re: basalt fibre - new material for me

Postby High Impulse » Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:00 am

I'm not too well versed in the materials science of it I am afraid (I can only do the heat flux calcs). But maybe a mixture of silica with some metallic oxides held together with a cement based binder (thats similar to some of the shuttle tiles)? If you wanted an ablative rather than reusable, a cork-expoy or cork-phenolic lining would also work well assuming the flight reached high enough temperatures.

IIRC i saw someone on the rocketry forum making some up for the nose cone of a rocket (it might have been crazy jim???) but I cant recall where or the exact details of the mixture .

I will be in Melbourne soon though OTT so would be up to collaborate/brainstorm at a launch day etc. to try and get something working.

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Re: basalt fibre - new material for me

Postby drew » Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:33 pm

OverTheTop wrote:Any suggestions for coatings there HI? I am building a couple of rockets for the Mach 2+ area (I hope) so I'm considering what I might coat the leading edges with. I suspect I am not going to need anything too special at that speed.


TBH OTT I don't think this is necessary, unless you're going to use Wests on those fin leading edges. :wink:

My 75er Mk. II went Mach 2.2 with nothing more than post cured Araldite 3600 over a layer of 200gsm carbon t2t. The paint took an absolute beating but the fins looked as good as they did before the flight. Also recall Nic's last "No Big Deal" M2245 rocket (the 4 fin one) hit Mach 3.12 at 6,500' with nothing a post cured Araldite 3600 fins.

https://forum.ausrocketry.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=4253&start=195#p63512
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Re: basalt fibre - new material for me

Postby OverTheTop » Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:42 pm

Thanks for the info Drew. So was the 3600 on the leading edges? Or were the leading edges bare fin material? If so, G10 or CF sheet?

Thanks
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Re: basalt fibre - new material for me

Postby drew » Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:54 pm

OverTheTop wrote:Thanks for the info Drew. So was the 3600 on the leading edges? Or were the leading edges bare fin material? If so, G10 or CF sheet?

Thanks


My pleasure OTT. Yes on the 3600 leading edge for my vehicle. I know my fins were stock standard G10 (scavenged from a Performance Rocketry 3" kit) with a single layer of 200 GSM carbon over top. Fillets were with ProLine 5400, then the layer of cf with Araldite 3600. I did "clean up" the base of the leading edges with a bit of ProLine 5400 as well, but that was more to cover for my mangling of the interface between the carbon and fillets than for any structural purpose. You can see my thread here, including the mangled cf layup.

https://forum.ausrocketry.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=4901

As for Nic's rocket, I can't state definitively but I know his standard build techniques for these sorts of rockets is to use cf fins, Epiglue fillets, Araldite 3600 for layups of fin stock as well as t2t, and finally two pack clear coat to finish. His No Big Deal flight gives me confidence that using composites + Araldite 3600 + Epiglue should be more than enough for flights that spend a brief amount of time in the low end of Mach 3 speeds.
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Re: basalt fibre - new material for me

Postby High Impulse » Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:34 pm

It would be an interesting experiment to try and put some thermocouples in leading edges of a Mach 3+ vehicle to see how much heat is transferred to the fin. Then you could somewhat correlate when you might start having problems.
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Re: basalt fibre - new material for me

Postby OverTheTop » Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:11 am

TBH OTT I don't think this is necessary, unless you're going to use Wests on those fin leading edges. :wink:


Interestingly, I am considering Wests for the LE (and fillets)! An idea is percolating currently and I actually think it will work. FYI, in the past I have had Wests fillets to Mach 1.8.
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