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input for the worksafe reg's for motors over 62.5g

Posted: Sun May 10, 2009 12:59 pm
by andrew scott
what would you like see in the reg's for motors over 62.5g

or what input can bring to do with writing a submission to worksafe vic
for the reg's involving motors over 62.5g

this is open to all rocket flyers in vic (input from other state is all so welcome)

I will start this off :)

1. to have the motors class as a non-firework and exempt for a prio licsense.

2. to buy these motors you must be in a club that is known by government departments (worksafe, casa etc)

3. or have links to clubs from interstate or over sea (NAR, TRA, CAR, UKRA etc)

4. A person wishing to obtain motors for certification must be a active member of a club in vic or interstate or is a active member of a over sea club with links a club in vic EG: NAR member flying with the MMRG

5. hobby store which sell motors over 62.5g will sell only to member of clubs in vic or links to interstate clubs which have made them self known to the store: EG: Stanbridges Hobby, hobbyman etc:

6. buy motors from a dealer at a launch

OK let the fun begin

Posted: Sun May 10, 2009 4:03 pm
by OverTheTop
Are we looking at this too much from a regulatory point of view? On what grounds does Worksafe control such items? I assume it is not like the BATFE in the states. If it is just for "work" purposes, does that only cover people dealing with and selling the items?

Since what we already have and have had for the past x years (somebody else will know how long) a safe track record with these larger motors, can we convince Worksafe that we are already safe in our current incarnation and just come under their auspices like that?

Maybe we don't need Worksafe approval at all?

Anybody using rocket motors for work would be covered by Worksafe practises anyway (not many in Australia).

Do Worksafe have to certify the use of crochet needles above a certain length? What other hobbies/pastimes/non-work activities do they intervene in?

Posted: Sun May 10, 2009 4:50 pm
by andrew scott
OverTheTop that's just it there is no reg's on these motor (so I been told) so if the reg's are to be write, we better have some input on this or we end up with a prio license just get H + motors.

" the state of VIC does not allow the use of AP motors above 62.5 grams in there state at all they have never been authorized so anyone who has flown AP motors in VIC you have broken the LAW " from ARA forum

worksafe is charge of the mandatory requirements under the Acts, * Dangerous Goods (Explosives) Regulations 2000

so worksafe is one's that oversee Dangerous Goods.

the link is :

http://www.worksafe.vic.gov.au/wps/wcm/ ... gulations/

have a look at it and you will see not a word on motor over 62.5g
no reg's = not authorized


Andrew Scott

Posted: Sun May 10, 2009 5:05 pm
by The Wombat
The emphasis is on the 'safe' rather than 'work' part of Worksafe. (Mentally rename then as Playsafe if it helps.)

Pyro is (primarily) covered by Worksafe, guns and ammo by police. While we are neither, government is sure to 'lump us in' with one of those. While I dislike the idea of Worksafe 'looking over our shoulder', I would suggest it would be far worse if coppers got involved.

What would I like to see for motors over 62.5? Why not raise the limit itself to 150 or 200 grams?

Posted: Sun May 10, 2009 5:58 pm
by andrew scott
While we are neither, government is sure to 'lump us in' with one of those.


this is all I can on rocket motors in the reg's this is for motors lese than 62,5g


106 Definitions

Page 7 and 8

general use fireworks means toy fireworks which
contain minute quantities of pyrotechnic
substance (such as toy pistol caps, party
poppers and snaps for bon-bon crackers),
sparklers, model rocket motors (containing
no more than 62·5 grams of propellant), and
any other fireworks authorized and approved
as a general use firework;


now if these reg's where written back in the 70's fireworks were legal
fireworks are now illegal so were dos that put us :?:

Posted: Sun May 10, 2009 9:07 pm
by Lamp
andrew scott wrote:
While we are neither, government is sure to 'lump us in' with one of those.


this is all I can on rocket motors in the reg's this is for motors lese than 62,5g


106 Definitions

Page 7 and 8

general use fireworks means toy fireworks which
contain minute quantities of pyrotechnic
substance (such as toy pistol caps, party
poppers and snaps for bon-bon crackers),
sparklers, model rocket motors (containing
no more than 62·5 grams of propellant), and
any other fireworks authorized and approved
as a general use firework;


now if these reg's where written back in the 70's fireworks were legal
fireworks are now illegal so were dos that put us :?:


I thought the same thing when I read that in the post but then I had a look at the list of items....toy pistol caps, party poppers and snaps for bon-bon crackers), sparklers, model rocket motors (containing no more than 62·5 grams of propellant)

I notice that crackers and other small pyrotechnic type fireworks are not on that list, however despite fireworks being banned all the other items on the list are still legal. It would seem that the pyrotechnic type exploding fireworks are no longer legal because they have been removed from the list and are therefore no longer deemed "authorized and approved".

Posted: Sun May 10, 2009 9:33 pm
by The Wombat
Presumably, that still stands. Any subsequent law specifically banning consumer fireworks would only affect the part of that rule that deals with fireworks.

As to the argument that motors over 62.5 have a blanket ban because there are no rules relating to them: this seems to fly in the face of general legal principles. Items or activities that are banned are so because they are covered by laws explicitly banning them. Items or activities are not automatically banned until permitted by law. There is no law, for example, specifically permitting tennis, but that does not make it illegal.

Posted: Mon May 11, 2009 8:50 pm
by andrew scott
That what bugs me about this, I cant see were in the reg's If motors of 62.5g or more are, I looked 6 times at the reg's so far all I can find is in the definitions is the general use fireworks.

there should be more section on rocket motors, but that all I can find.

they have to be there in the reg's to have them not even listed is got me thinking that the ARA have not read the worksafe reg's of Victoria.

I'm still reading the reg's from other state to is what there got.

andrew

Posted: Mon May 11, 2009 9:01 pm
by 6111_1
no# one we the ARA have not read anything wrong in VIC if you dont beleave us contact TRA VIC they have know for over ten years you could not fly HPR AP motors in the state of VIC


go ask david boyd the current prefect

Posted: Mon May 11, 2009 9:48 pm
by b-h
Andrew,
What permit would be required for a fire works display? "not General Fireworks"
Im sure sky rockets are launched that contain a propellant mass larger than 62.5 g

Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 8:57 am
by Kryten
b-h wrote:What permit would be required for a fire works display? "not General Fireworks"
Im sure sky rockets are launched that contain a propellant mass larger than 62.5 g

Correct me if I'm wrong (is there a licensed pyrotechnician here? Blake?), but large "sky rockets" are pretty much non-existent. Displays use aerial shells launched from mortar tubes, so are quite different to model rocket motors.
The issue seems to be that motors with more than 62.5g of propellant are not authorised. Smaller motors have been grouped into "toy fireworks" - it would seem that it was easier to do this than to have a separate category.
It would be really simple if the regs didn't mention the propellant mass

Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 5:19 pm
by Avachovy
Kryten wrote:
b-h wrote:What permit would be required for a fire works display? "not General Fireworks"
Im sure sky rockets are launched that contain a propellant mass larger than 62.5 g

Correct me if I'm wrong (is there a licensed pyrotechnician here? Blake?), but large "sky rockets" are pretty much non-existent. Displays use aerial shells launched from mortar tubes, so are quite different to model rocket motors.
The issue seems to be that motors with more than 62.5g of propellant are not authorised. Smaller motors have been grouped into "toy fireworks" - it would seem that it was easier to do this than to have a separate category.
It would be really simple if the regs didn't mention the propellant mass


you can get quite large sky rockets, ive seen (and used) BP motors that would have probably been around G size or more. They were 40mm tubing hauling 700g shells up

As for the 62.5g limit, either make it the largest 29mm or 38mm motor or get rid of the weight limit altogether and change it to newton seconds

Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 6:52 pm
by OverTheTop
I like the idea of keeping things simple. The largest 38mm motor idea appeals to me.

The arbitrary propellant mass didn't make sense to me all along as different propellants have different energy. Maybe a Ns total impulse limit is the most sensible all around.

What impulse limit to set? Would a H or I be sensible, then it would be certification to continue to higher powers?

I would like to see Simple and Sensible!

Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 9:05 pm
by b-h
Correct me if I'm wrong (is there a licensed pyrotechnician here? Blake?), but large "sky rockets" are pretty much non-existent. Displays use aerial shells launched from mortar tubes, so are quite different to model rocket motors.
The issue seems to be that motors with more than 62.5g of propellant are not authorised. Smaller motors have been grouped into "toy fireworks" - it would seem that it was easier to do this than to have a separate category.
It would be really simple if the regs didn't mention the propellant mass


What I'm getting a is, can the fire works guys in Vic launch sky rockets with a propellant mass greater than 62.5 grams?(if they use rockets larger than 62.5g) If so, what sort of permit is required? or dose a fire works operators permit what ever it is called, enable him to launch what ever he likes. If no , dose it mean that a motor with a propellant mass greater than 62.5 g can not be launched in Vic buy a fireworks operator.
Whether you are launching a model rocket or a firework shell you are still using a rocket motor. I wonder if because there is disassociation with fireworks amongst the model rocket community, the regs can not be found. I may be totally wrong

Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 9:38 pm
by OverTheTop
Are there any lawyers that fly model rockets? We might be able to use one about now... :D