WARS membership updates

Based close to Perth and with multiple launch sites, WARS is the premiere rocketry organisation in Western Australia. (also known as CGN Group)

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RainierWolfcastle
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WARS membership updates

Postby RainierWolfcastle » Fri Oct 08, 2021 8:57 pm

Hi all, work on getting back out in paddocks and flying again is underway. As part of the process an email has been sent to current members regarding the transfer of memberships and certifications to TRA. If you have not received it please let me know soon as we need to get this sorted early next week. Can message me or reply here.

Ben Fischer
- Ben

AMRS #174 L2
WARS #037

 "If I have seen further, it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." - Sir Isaac Newton, 1675

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Re: WARS membership updates

Postby strud » Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:24 pm

Appreciate the efforts :-)

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Re: WARS membership updates

Postby drew » Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:34 pm

Good afternoon all. Just a quick update, I've been given confirmation by Tripoli that all the submitted WARS/AMRS certifications have been successfully ported over to Tripoli certifications. Thanks for your patience in this endeavour.

If you want me to individually confirm your status please reach out to me directly. I can also say that at this time the membership cards reflecting our already attained certifications won't be dispatched until at an unknown later date due to the fact that as of October 1st the USPS suspended mail deliver to Australia and NZ.

https://www.smh.com.au/national/consumers-fume-after-us-postal-service-suspends-australian-deliveries-20211001-p58wb8.html

usps-useless-thanks-don.png


https://about.usps.com/newsroom/service-alerts/international/welcome.htm
Andrew Hamilton
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Max Alt AGL - 26,850ft - L935 - THUNDA 2019
Max V - 3,004 ft/s, ~Mach 2.67 - L935 - THUNDA 2019

drew
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Re: WARS membership updates

Postby drew » Thu Nov 11, 2021 5:48 pm

Hi All,

As a further update our Tripoli Certifications are now reflected in the TRA "CertifiedMembersList.csv" file which anyone can access without authentication.

http://www.tripoli.org/Portals/1/Exports/CertifiedMembersList.csv

This should be helpful to confirm that your cert has been successfully ported as well as confirming TRA membership numbers for people who've only just joined Tripoli.
Andrew Hamilton
TRA L3 (12385)
Max Alt AGL - 26,850ft - L935 - THUNDA 2019
Max V - 3,004 ft/s, ~Mach 2.67 - L935 - THUNDA 2019

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Re: WARS membership updates

Postby Goddard » Sat Nov 13, 2021 3:37 pm

Good onya Drew,

Thanks mate.
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Re: WARS membership updates

Postby tom_wa » Fri Jan 21, 2022 8:46 pm

Are you taking members now in 2022? I am sending rockets up by myself (I head out around barbagallow raceway). I would like to get my pyrotechnic licence so I can make my own motors (or at least not get in trouble for having black powder kicking around in the car) - not necessarily powerful ones, just my own parts. I understand a membership is a damn good place to start.

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Re: WARS membership updates

Postby Jim-K » Tue Jan 25, 2022 10:57 pm

Me too on the membership - but not the motors that sounds a bit hazardous.

Jim K

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Re: WARS membership updates

Postby tom_wa » Mon Jan 31, 2022 6:04 pm

Jim-K wrote:Me too on the membership - but not the motors that sounds a bit hazardous.

Jim K


Having a fireworks background I think its kind of cute. We should get together sometime? Start our own club

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Re: WARS membership updates

Postby drew » Mon Jan 31, 2022 6:14 pm

tom_wa wrote:Are you taking members now in 2022? I am sending rockets up by myself (I head out around barbagallow raceway). I would like to get my pyrotechnic licence so I can make my own motors (or at least not get in trouble for having black powder kicking around in the car) - not necessarily powerful ones, just my own parts. I understand a membership is a damn good place to start.


Hi Tom, thanks for reaching out. Effectively WARS is going to be a Tripoli club moving forward so Tripoli membership is going to be all that's required moving forward. Tripoli only permits EX (read homemade) motors for Level 2 and above flyers and you can only fly them at a Tripoli 'Research' launch. And that's in the states. Here in Australia (to my understanding and IANAL rules apply) it's outright illegal to make your own rocket motor without a pyrotechnics manufacturing license, which is apparently much more difficult to get than a standard DG/explosives license for storage. But even if you could manufacture BP motors locally at home, Tripoli would not allow them at any launch (including Research events)

bp-no-bueno.jpeg
bp-no-bueno.jpeg (17.88 KiB) Viewed 1371 times


There's good reason for this as BP is prone to detonate under pressure whereas AP and AN do not.
Andrew Hamilton
TRA L3 (12385)
Max Alt AGL - 26,850ft - L935 - THUNDA 2019
Max V - 3,004 ft/s, ~Mach 2.67 - L935 - THUNDA 2019

drew
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Re: WARS membership updates

Postby drew » Mon Jan 31, 2022 6:18 pm

Jim-K wrote:Me too on the membership - but not the motors that sounds a bit hazardous.

Jim K


No worries Jim, you'll need to join Tripoli before the launch season starts. Here's a link with more information.

https://www.tripoli.org/content.aspx?page_id=22&club_id=795696&module_id=469205
Andrew Hamilton
TRA L3 (12385)
Max Alt AGL - 26,850ft - L935 - THUNDA 2019
Max V - 3,004 ft/s, ~Mach 2.67 - L935 - THUNDA 2019

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Re: WARS membership updates

Postby tom_wa » Mon Jan 31, 2022 11:13 pm

drew wrote:
tom_wa wrote:Are you taking members now in 2022? I am sending rockets up by myself (I head out around barbagallow raceway). I would like to get my pyrotechnic licence so I can make my own motors (or at least not get in trouble for having black powder kicking around in the car) - not necessarily powerful ones, just my own parts. I understand a membership is a damn good place to start.


Hi Tom, thanks for reaching out. Effectively WARS is going to be a Tripoli club moving forward so Tripoli membership is going to be all that's required moving forward. Tripoli only permits EX (read homemade) motors for Level 2 and above flyers and you can only fly them at a Tripoli 'Research' launch. And that's in the states. Here in Australia (to my understanding and IANAL rules apply) it's outright illegal to make your own rocket motor without a pyrotechnics manufacturing license, which is apparently much more difficult to get than a standard DG/explosives license for storage. But even if you could manufacture BP motors locally at home, Tripoli would not allow them at any launch (including Research events)

bp-no-bueno.jpeg

There's good reason for this as BP is prone to detonate under pressure whereas AP and AN do not.


Gosh, a few things dont sound right. A pyrotechnics manufacturing licence doesn't exist. Are you referring to an explosives manufacturing licence? Black powder is a combination of potassium nitrate, sulfer and charcoal. None of those are regulated, however nitrate IS a dangerous good. Possession and use of the resulting black powder, if combined, can be permitted by a holder of a pyrotechnics special use licence or a firearms licence.

Based on your post, the latter (firearms, which I am also involved in) sounds easier if WARS has decided to go backwards merge with Tripoli and adopt restrictive policy and regulations which, based on your post, suggests to me restrictions on the development of rocket engine composition and design simply because we are not located in the United States.

The suggestion that black powder motors are prone to detonation is an interesting statement. I would argue plugging both ends of a perchlorate or nitrate composition (required for any sort of detonation of a BP composition) would be more dangerous as the difference is black powder just explodes with minimum force (I have had a BP TNT sized stick go off in my hand before and suffered only minor burns). AP and AN would have resulted in severe burns under the same circumstances

But it is what it is. Thank you for the clarification. While I will continue rocketry I appreciate the clarification that WARS is not undertaking the class of rocketry research and development I am looking at. It's a shame as I have developed rocket avionics such as thrust vectoring and vertical landing capabilities I feel can be improved with the manufacture of specialised engine design and testing I am carrying out regardless of a membership to WARS, Tripoli or any other club.

I would love to support others interested in this hobby, but I can't do that if I am only going to go backwards with what I can bring to the table. I really wish you and others all the best with the limited capabilities your organisation has decided to adopt and adhere to. Its a shame those same capabilities can't compete with the level of advanced rocketry being developed by some young people within my circle. At least I can rest assured they would not be interested, either.

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Re: WARS membership updates

Postby drew » Tue Feb 01, 2022 11:37 am

Gosh, a few things dont sound right. A pyrotechnics manufacturing licence doesn't exist.


As mentioned, I am not a lawyer. Have you consulted one regarding you activities? I appreciate your vagueness (no need to cop to breaking the law in a public forum, right?) but if you're making motors to my understanding (and once again, IANAL) you're breaking the law.

The suggestion that black powder motors are prone to detonation is an interesting statement. I would argue plugging both ends of a perchlorate or nitrate composition (required for any sort of detonation of a BP composition) would be more dangerous as the difference is black powder just explodes with minimum force (I have had a BP TNT sized stick go off in my hand before and suffered only minor burns). AP and AN would have resulted in severe burns under the same circumstances


Given this is a rocketry forum I expected it would be implied that we were discussing rocket motors, not pipe bombs. But if you don't believe me you can conduct a simple experiment. Start looking and asking around for someone to sell you (or instruct you on how to make) a High Power BP motor. They don't exist, and for good reason.

While I will continue rocketry I appreciate the clarification that WARS is not undertaking the class of rocketry research and development I am looking at. It's a shame as I have developed rocket avionics such as thrust vectoring and vertical landing capabilities I feel can be improved with the manufacture of specialised engine design and testing I am carrying out regardless of a membership to WARS, Tripoli or any other club.


I appreciate your subtle drag but regardless you won't get very far with homemade BP motors (altitude or otherwise) so I'm not sure what class of rocket research and development you think you're going to attain by going down that path. But I can tell you definitively that you're not alone in developing rocket avionics. And no offence, but low power BPS stuff isn't the cutting edge of serious amateur rocketry. Far from it in fact. TVC is borderline useless in HPR and vertical landing capabilities are completely useless. Effectively you're building a technologically advanced toy. While impressive, it's still a toy. You'd be better off looking into active stabilisation and guided parachute recovery if you want to be more 'cutting edge' in your rocket research and development and you're looking to actually accomplish something in amateur rocketry.

I would love to support others interested in this hobby, but I can't do that if I am only going to go backwards with what I can bring to the table. I really wish you and others all the best with the limited capabilities your organisation has decided to adopt and adhere to. Its a shame those same capabilities can't compete with the level of advanced rocketry being developed by some young people within my circle. At least I can rest assured they would not be interested, either.


I suggest you investigate starting up your own club then. You'll need a launch site with landowner permission, CASA approval, and insurance. We'll be here, as we alway are, when you most likely come to the realisation that the financial burden of insurance alone is an insurmountable blocker for people who aren't independently wealthy.
Andrew Hamilton
TRA L3 (12385)
Max Alt AGL - 26,850ft - L935 - THUNDA 2019
Max V - 3,004 ft/s, ~Mach 2.67 - L935 - THUNDA 2019

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RainierWolfcastle
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Re: WARS membership updates

Postby RainierWolfcastle » Tue Feb 01, 2022 1:47 pm

I'm going to avoid quoting or replying to any specific post, as there are a few things I'm just not going to touch. But I do have a comment or three for those new to either rocketry, club rocketry or high power rocketry.

WARS becoming a Tripoli based club in no way changes any of the rules or regulations we fly under, the previous AMRS rules and certification system were extremely similar to Tripoli and NAR, as are many other clubs around the world. These rules also fit within the Australian local regulatory framework with minor local differences (DG licences etc). Flight instruments, insurance and equipment for larger rocket launches are no small deal and the benefit of having a club provide these is easily worth the fee. Given that in WA especially anything dangerous that isn't used for mining can be very hard to get a permit for we are quite lucky to have a system that lets us do what we currently do. Note that a license has always been required for making fireworks devices (or anything the DMP consider a firework) and this has nothing to do with what the club does or doesn't put in it's rule book, you have to argue with the state government on that one: http://www.dmp.wa.gov.au/Dangerous-Good ... -5280.aspx

High power rocketry includes motors that are orders of magnitude larger than could be safely made in BP, if you think otherwise you're either making very low performing powder or you haven't seen how big motors can get. This isn't a matter of technique or skill, it's a physical limit of binders and construction that differs between motor types. Another reason to check out a club and see what is being flown and what is out there.

TVC fortunately does not care what chemicals you use to generate the thrust part of the acronym, in fact Aerotech have put significant effort into making very long burn motors primarily targeted at the growing community interested in TVC systems. The burn time and performance per weight of these off the shelf motors is well beyond even what the most talented pyrotechnician could make with BP.

It's been a rough few years for most group activities in Australia, but it looks like this year will be back on track to be launching as per usual. I hope we'll see some new faces coming to check it out.
- Ben

AMRS #174 L2
WARS #037

 "If I have seen further, it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." - Sir Isaac Newton, 1675

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Re: WARS membership updates

Postby Jim-K » Sun Mar 06, 2022 2:47 pm

Going back to the membership thing (rather than the black powder rabbit hole) do I just ‘sign up’ with Tripoli, or do I have make sure I sign up as an Australian (or West Australian) member?

I can find an option for “Senior Member - New (18 and older)” - for 70 USD - but the WA prefecture does not show up.

Sorry if this is discussed elsewhere…

Jim K

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Re: WARS membership updates

Postby lorstin » Mon Mar 07, 2022 5:45 pm

Jim-K wrote:Going back to the membership thing (rather than the black powder rabbit hole) do I just ‘sign up’ with Tripoli, or do I have make sure I sign up as an Australian (or West Australian) member?

I can find an option for “Senior Member - New (18 and older)” - for 70 USD - but the WA prefecture does not show up.

Sorry if this is discussed elsewhere…

Jim K

G'day Jim, if I'm not mistaken you will have to join Tripoli (like you said- as a Senior Member) AND join WARS as well - they are not one and the same thing.
IAAH


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