Curt von Delius hits 200k' with his Phoenix 4 2 stage stack

Discussion of rocketry events/launches and current news

Moderator: Moderators

drew
Southern fried goodness
Southern fried goodness
Posts: 923
Joined: Sat Aug 01, 2009 10:20 pm
Location: Perth

Curt von Delius hits 200k' with his Phoenix 4 2 stage stack

Postby drew » Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:53 pm

Video here.


And here's the TRF thread from his initial Phoenix 4 flight in 2015 that hit 96k'.
https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/curt-von-delius-phoenix-4-flight-to-96k-at-xprs.129045/

If anyone finds any other information on this vehicle could you please post it on this thread? I've looked around and there's very little documentation of this staging stack/project.
Andrew Hamilton
AMRS 28 L3
AMRS Records Committee Chairman
Max Alt AGL - 23,908ft - K300 - Balls 22
Max V - 2,488 ft/s, ~Mach 2.2 - M2250 - THUNDA 2015

User avatar
SpaceManMat
Astronaut
Astronaut
Posts: 2076
Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2008 9:56 pm
Location: Brisbane

Re: Curt von Delius hits 200k' with his Phoenix 4 2 stage stack

Postby SpaceManMat » Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:46 pm

I’m told Curt tends to keep things to himself.

Links I found discussing the original Phoenix flight
https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/v ... st-1502734

https://www.rocketryforum.com/posts/1509777/

Link to the latest
https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/2 ... st-1803981

From the above the only thing I could glean was that apparently the motors are N5800 - N1100

Description from YouTube:
Experience this amazing supersonic near space flight through on board HD video. Curt von Delius's state of the art PHX4 launched on June 16, 2018 from the Black Rock Desert, Nevada. Accelerating to over 3.5 times the speed of sound the rocket coasted to 46 miles above sea level. This is the highest flight of any amateur two stage rocket. The reusable design was recovered using Disc Gap Band Parachutes and touched down 6.36 miles from launch.


The video also does not give an actual altitude, no indication of why. At 3:05 into the video it says 244186 feet MSL estimated. So doesn’t seem this will actually count for any records.
QRS: 124
AMRS: 32 L2 RSO
Highest Altitude: 13,647 feet
Fastest Flight: Mach 1.55
Largest Motor: CTI 1115J530 IM
Current Project: X Wing

User avatar
Viking
Rocket Crew
Rocket Crew
Posts: 476
Joined: Sat May 16, 2015 2:54 pm
Location: Perth WA

Re: Curt von Delius hits 200k' with his Phoenix 4 2 stage stack

Postby Viking » Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:38 pm

SpaceManMat wrote:...
The video also does not give an actual altitude, no indication of why. At 3:05 into the video it says 244186 feet MSL estimated. So doesn’t seem this will actually count for any records.


I'd be interested in how they came up with that figure, as far as I understand, baro altimeters are only good up to around 30k (at least for the Bosch sensors) and the BRB listed in the credits uses a uBlox Max 7 which is altitude capped at 50k metres or ~165k feet.
Simon
WARS #24 / AMRS #54 L2

drew
Southern fried goodness
Southern fried goodness
Posts: 923
Joined: Sat Aug 01, 2009 10:20 pm
Location: Perth

Re: Curt von Delius hits 200k' with his Phoenix 4 2 stage stack

Postby drew » Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:10 pm

Viking wrote:
SpaceManMat wrote:...
The video also does not give an actual altitude, no indication of why. At 3:05 into the video it says 244186 feet MSL estimated. So doesn’t seem this will actually count for any records.


I'd be interested in how they came up with that figure, as far as I understand, baro altimeters are only good up to around 30k (at least for the Bosch sensors) and the BRB listed in the credits uses a uBlox Max 7 which is altitude capped at 50k metres or ~165k feet.


Seems like it was a 100mW BRB transmitter. From the leddits.

Overall design is very closely based on the Black Brandt VIII (a.k.a. Nike Black Brant) sounding rocket.

CTI N5800 to CTI N1100. N1100 had a larger nozzle expansion cone wound out out of carbon tow.

The sustainer fincan and nosecone are covered in ablative (iirc, Minteq FIREX).

He made a really neat interstate that is match machined to fit perfectly inside sustainer's nozzle; he told me that he had to machine tiny vent holes that run the whole structure or else pressure would build up inside the sustainer motor during boost and separate the stack early.

He sewed the parachutes himself, the drogue chute is a Disc Gap Band design that is stable even during supersonic descent.

Telemetry was a 70cm 100W BigRedBee GPS.


https://www.reddit.com/r/rocketry/comments/95rvkj/phx4_rocket_launches_to_over_46_miles_attaining/
Andrew Hamilton
AMRS 28 L3
AMRS Records Committee Chairman
Max Alt AGL - 23,908ft - K300 - Balls 22
Max V - 2,488 ft/s, ~Mach 2.2 - M2250 - THUNDA 2015

User avatar
SpaceManMat
Astronaut
Astronaut
Posts: 2076
Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2008 9:56 pm
Location: Brisbane

Re: Curt von Delius hits 200k' with his Phoenix 4 2 stage stack

Postby SpaceManMat » Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:23 pm

Found this image on Tripoli Phoenix.
Image
QRS: 124
AMRS: 32 L2 RSO
Highest Altitude: 13,647 feet
Fastest Flight: Mach 1.55
Largest Motor: CTI 1115J530 IM
Current Project: X Wing

drew
Southern fried goodness
Southern fried goodness
Posts: 923
Joined: Sat Aug 01, 2009 10:20 pm
Location: Perth

Re: Curt von Delius hits 200k' with his Phoenix 4 2 stage stack

Postby drew » Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:43 am

Good find d00d!
Andrew Hamilton
AMRS 28 L3
AMRS Records Committee Chairman
Max Alt AGL - 23,908ft - K300 - Balls 22
Max V - 2,488 ft/s, ~Mach 2.2 - M2250 - THUNDA 2015

User avatar
CATO
Mr Smiley
Mr Smiley
Posts: 1957
Joined: Thu Dec 24, 2009 6:20 pm
Location: Sydney, NSW
Contact:

Re: Curt von Delius hits 200k' with his Phoenix 4 2 stage stack

Postby CATO » Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:41 pm

Awesome flight...

At the end of the video, the altimeter is chirping out an altitude of 46,811', I assume that this must be the booster altitude or another rocket...
"In thrust we trust"

AMRS 21 L3
TRA 07459 L3

Impulse:
2018: 14,767 Ns (44% N)
Ns 17: 5,973; 16: 34,558; 15: 35,955; 14: 6,016; 13: 10,208
PB - Gorilla N2717WC, H: 10,260', S: 1.14M

drew
Southern fried goodness
Southern fried goodness
Posts: 923
Joined: Sat Aug 01, 2009 10:20 pm
Location: Perth

Re: Curt von Delius hits 200k' with his Phoenix 4 2 stage stack

Postby drew » Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:52 pm

CATO wrote:Awesome flight...

At the end of the video, the altimeter is chirping out an altitude of 46,811', I assume that this must be the booster altitude or another rocket...


I believe he only had a camera in the sustainer. But as Simon pointed out up thread baro sensors are only accurate to ~30k meters so I'd take the beeping with a grain of salt. My expectation is the BRB was used for verifying apogee. I'd LOVE to see a KML file or conversely even a Google Earth track image of the flight.
Andrew Hamilton
AMRS 28 L3
AMRS Records Committee Chairman
Max Alt AGL - 23,908ft - K300 - Balls 22
Max V - 2,488 ft/s, ~Mach 2.2 - M2250 - THUNDA 2015

User avatar
CATO
Mr Smiley
Mr Smiley
Posts: 1957
Joined: Thu Dec 24, 2009 6:20 pm
Location: Sydney, NSW
Contact:

Re: Curt von Delius hits 200k' with his Phoenix 4 2 stage stack

Postby CATO » Fri Aug 17, 2018 2:12 pm

drew wrote:I believe he only had a camera in the sustainer. But as Simon pointed out up thread baro sensors are only accurate to ~30k meters so I'd take the beeping with a grain of salt. My expectation is the BRB was used for verifying apogee.


Fair enough...
"In thrust we trust"

AMRS 21 L3
TRA 07459 L3

Impulse:
2018: 14,767 Ns (44% N)
Ns 17: 5,973; 16: 34,558; 15: 35,955; 14: 6,016; 13: 10,208
PB - Gorilla N2717WC, H: 10,260', S: 1.14M

User avatar
Viking
Rocket Crew
Rocket Crew
Posts: 476
Joined: Sat May 16, 2015 2:54 pm
Location: Perth WA

Re: Curt von Delius hits 200k' with his Phoenix 4 2 stage stack

Postby Viking » Fri Aug 17, 2018 3:07 pm

drew wrote:... My expectation is the BRB was used for verifying apogee...

As I mentioned at GV over the weekend, I have my doubts about this as the uBlox datasheet mentions 50km altitude limit.

I also found this on the ublox user forum, note the dates and username....
BRB.PNG


Link to ublox thread: https://forum.u-blox.com/index.php/2310 ... above-000m

Edit: My theory is that they ran a simulation after the event, tweaking it to best fit the actual velocity and altitude data that they got before they hit the Baro and GPS limitations, plus any MEMS accelerometer data that should have been flawless for the entire flight and provide a pretty accurate time-to-apogee to fit the simulation to.
Simon
WARS #24 / AMRS #54 L2

drew
Southern fried goodness
Southern fried goodness
Posts: 923
Joined: Sat Aug 01, 2009 10:20 pm
Location: Perth

Re: Curt von Delius hits 200k' with his Phoenix 4 2 stage stack

Postby drew » Sat Aug 18, 2018 12:32 pm

Viking wrote:As I mentioned at GV over the weekend, I have my doubts about this as the uBlox datasheet mentions 50km altitude limit.

I also found this on the ublox user forum, note the dates and username....
BRB.PNG

Link to ublox thread: https://forum.u-blox.com/index.php/2310 ... above-000m

Edit: My theory is that they ran a simulation after the event, tweaking it to best fit the actual velocity and altitude data that they got before they hit the Baro and GPS limitations, plus any MEMS accelerometer data that should have been flawless for the entire flight and provide a pretty accurate time-to-apogee to fit the simulation to.


Awesome find Viking! And credit where it's due, you definitely called it in advance. Given the forum post you linked to a few questions come to mind. Do you think that the 50,000m limit is software based (like COCOM limits)? My expectation is that is the case. I'm also curious as to how the 244,186' above MSL "estimate" was calculated, and why it's such a specific calculation. If it was calculated by a simulation like you posit then why not just round down, factor in the Black Rock ASL value, and just call it ~240,000' AGL? The specificity of the estimate is somewhat confusing, at least imho. Finally, and this is a bit of a more generic question, but what viable options are available for calculating apogee above 50,000m that exclude accelerometer data that's quite prone to drift and doesn't normally take into account the lack of a truly vertical flight?
Andrew Hamilton
AMRS 28 L3
AMRS Records Committee Chairman
Max Alt AGL - 23,908ft - K300 - Balls 22
Max V - 2,488 ft/s, ~Mach 2.2 - M2250 - THUNDA 2015

User avatar
OverTheTop
It's only money...
It's only money...
Posts: 2635
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 2:20 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Curt von Delius hits 200k' with his Phoenix 4 2 stage stack

Postby OverTheTop » Sat Aug 18, 2018 3:01 pm

Don't get me started on a conversation about significant figures :roll:

Six significant figures based on a simulation? I don't think so. As Drew said, round it down to three and it would probably be acceptable.
TRA #13430
L3
"Everybody's simulation model is guilty until proven innocent" (Thomas H. Lawrence 1994)

User avatar
SpaceManMat
Astronaut
Astronaut
Posts: 2076
Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2008 9:56 pm
Location: Brisbane

Re: Curt von Delius hits 200k' with his Phoenix 4 2 stage stack

Postby SpaceManMat » Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:15 am

drew wrote:Finally, and this is a bit of a more generic question, but what viable options are available for calculating apogee above 50,000m that exclude accelerometer data that's quite prone to drift and doesn't normally take into account the lack of a truly vertical flight?


If done well accelerometers can provide accurate data, this was one method used to navigate to the moon. The other methods they used in conjunction where star finder and also radar.

Alternatively an unlocked GPS would work, not sure how many hoops you have to jump through for that.

I did find this on the Multitronix specification page:
Accelerometer altitude max dynamic range: 400K feet


https://www.multitronix.com/specifications.html
QRS: 124
AMRS: 32 L2 RSO
Highest Altitude: 13,647 feet
Fastest Flight: Mach 1.55
Largest Motor: CTI 1115J530 IM
Current Project: X Wing

drew
Southern fried goodness
Southern fried goodness
Posts: 923
Joined: Sat Aug 01, 2009 10:20 pm
Location: Perth

Re: Curt von Delius hits 200k' with his Phoenix 4 2 stage stack

Postby drew » Mon Aug 20, 2018 6:27 pm

SpaceManMat wrote:If done well accelerometers can provide accurate data, this was one method used to navigate to the moon. The other methods they used in conjunction where star finder and also radar.

Alternatively an unlocked GPS would work, not sure how many hoops you have to jump through for that.

I did find this on the Multitronix specification page:
Accelerometer altitude max dynamic range: 400K feet


https://www.multitronix.com/specifications.html


Thanks Matt. Sure, accelerometers can do the job but they're not the best solution imo. GPS satellites are parked at ~20,200km so they should work fine. Quite curious that uBlox stops working above 50,000m, I wonder if that's the same with all GPS chipsets and if that's a part of COCOM or something else?
Andrew Hamilton
AMRS 28 L3
AMRS Records Committee Chairman
Max Alt AGL - 23,908ft - K300 - Balls 22
Max V - 2,488 ft/s, ~Mach 2.2 - M2250 - THUNDA 2015

User avatar
Viking
Rocket Crew
Rocket Crew
Posts: 476
Joined: Sat May 16, 2015 2:54 pm
Location: Perth WA

Re: Curt von Delius hits 200k' with his Phoenix 4 2 stage stack

Postby Viking » Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:06 pm

drew wrote:Do you think that the 50,000m limit is software based (like COCOM limits)? My expectation is that is the case.

TBH I don't know whether it's a COCOM, or ITAR or Wassenaar regulation.. or if it's a limitation in ublox's navagation engine. Dunno.
Here's the 'Dynamic Platform' options for the Max7.
Note that the oft-quoted max velocity of 500m/s (or 512 or 600) is actually for horizontal velocity. Vertical is limited to 100m/s.
ublox dynamics.PNG
ublox dynamics.PNG (72.82 KiB) Viewed 420 times


I'm also curious as to how the 244,186' above MSL "estimate" was calculated, and why it's such a specific calculation. If it was calculated by a simulation like you posit then why not just round down, factor in the Black Rock ASL value, and just call it ~240,000' AGL? The specificity of the estimate is somewhat confusing, at least imho.

Haha, yes, well. I agree with you and OTT.
Simon
WARS #24 / AMRS #54 L2


Return to “News & Events”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests