Thunda Stats

Australian Rocketry's Thunda Down Under 2015

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vk2icj
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Re: Thunda Stats

Postby vk2icj » Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:56 pm

Count me in.. I'll help with the radio/telemetry side.

lol

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Re: Thunda Stats

Postby ROCKet STAR » Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:32 pm

Sumo310 wrote:Which leads to the question, who wants to throw in for an actual space shot? :D



Well that's the long term goal/pipe dream... With a coordinated plan and a few years, it could be feasable as a group project. The biggest hurdle will be the space act, I reckon.
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Re: Thunda Stats

Postby jase » Wed Mar 25, 2015 7:37 am

I reckon Chris is right, but, space itself isn't clearly defined in the Act.

A Space Object is though;

"space object means a thing consisting of:
(a) a launch vehicle; and
(b) a payload (if any) that the launch vehicle is to carry into or
back from an area beyond the distance of 100 km above
mean sea level;
or any part of such a thing, even if:
(c) the part is to go only some of the way towards or back from
an area beyond the distance of 100 km above mean sea level;
or
(d) the part results from the separation of a payload or payloads
from a launch vehicle after launch."

If you were happy to fly to the edge of space, say 99km (which would be pretty freaking awesome anyway) then you'd be operating outside the scope of the definition under (a) and (b) so (c) and (d) wouldn't apply either, because you are not intending to fly to 100km...

Essentially, your 'object' ie: 'really cool rocket' could not be defined as a 'space object'...

IMHO at least :D
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Re: Thunda Stats

Postby SpaceManMat » Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:28 am

Looks like people are interested, perhaps a moderator can split this off onto a seperate thread?

First thing we need to agree on is a goal or perhaps goals (IE do we want to do this is stages?)

Second thing what do we want to call the project? Something like Space Shot Oz?

Thirdly who is in?
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Re: Thunda Stats

Postby october sky » Wed Mar 25, 2015 2:09 pm

Jase.......I can't help but smile and maybe object is to go 96km BUT by "accident" we reach orbit..... :wink: :D

What Matt said..who's in....this naturally would be very long process that needs a lot of planning......IF permission is given.

I know : Nic builds the rocket and rest of us will look on..... :lol: sorry Nic, this is your fault really as your the man ! 8)

All fun/pun aside, I totally believe there are so many gifted people among our group to make this dream a possibility.....we should really give this a good go guys...what is the worst that can happen ??? They say NO...that's about it.
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Re: Thunda Stats

Postby jase » Wed Mar 25, 2015 3:12 pm

october sky wrote:Jase.......I can't help but smile and maybe object is to go 96km BUT by "accident" we reach orbit..... :wink: :D


Ari my friend you've hit the nail on the head :wink:

If the intention is to go beyond 100km then you're in for some paperwork.

If the intention is to go to 96km and it happens to perform 'better than expected' then I cant see [technically by the letter of the law/appropriate Act] any need for additional bureaucratic involvement, beyond the normal approval process, of course :wink:

As a good friend of mine often says "sometimes it's easier to apologize than ask for permission"...

...and as I often say, if someone says "No" you're not asking the right person :P
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Re: Thunda Stats

Postby october sky » Wed Mar 25, 2015 3:33 pm

Yes indeed Jase....totally agree. Looks like we are in the same page.....intention to reach close to space/orbit but it went a bit further.... :wink:

My philosophy in life has always been : If you don't ask you won't know...so ask...and the worst that can happen they say no....then you move on ! :wink:
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Re: Thunda Stats

Postby High Impulse » Wed Mar 25, 2015 3:54 pm

Well whatever happens I would love to be in on it (in other words permsion to come aboard c'pt?)

Just the other day I thought of doing something just like this. Then I rechecked the definition of space and realised that it's going to take a little bit more than a G motor to get there.

All the same it sounds like an epic idea and hopefully by the time (I'm guessing it could be a long time in the making given the long lead up the world record rocket team had) it gets off thef ground (paperwork willing) I should have a mech and aero degree and might be able to contribute to the fluid mechanics side of things???
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Re: Thunda Stats

Postby CATO » Wed Mar 25, 2015 5:13 pm

Sorry all, please excuse my ignorance, are we talking an Australian or OS launch?

If indeed we plan to launch in Australia (which would be way cool by the way) any ideas as form where? I know Westmar is "currently" good for 120,000', and I have been advised that Woomera is a no go, so what would be our options?

I think we would have a higher participation / following if this could be held in Australia, and would stir some national pride if indeed we took the 100km + (space) route, who knows, may be even some sponsorship.

@Blake, any plans for shipping BIGGER motors into Australia, P's & Q's?

OZ LAUNCH ALLIANCE...

Just my 2c worth.
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Re: Thunda Stats

Postby martymonsta » Wed Mar 25, 2015 5:50 pm

Well I was having a read and from what I see scientific research and education are except from at least some of the space act.
So we say we are conducting scientific research into space launch systems.

IMHO I think it would be good to take a shot at 100k ft to start with as this has been done before on a N to M, the airspace is available, and the lessons learned would be beneficial.
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Re: Thunda Stats

Postby Sumo310 » Wed Mar 25, 2015 6:24 pm

100km is a big deal, least of which is the cost.

Blake does have access to and has priced up the cost of a Cesaroni S motor. Lets say you're looking at $90k for the motor and shipping. You need an airframe good for Mach 5. A bunch of Ravens wont cut it, so you're going to need to fork out for an RDAS or equivalent electronics package, and 100% reliable 2-way communication with the rocket.

THEN, you need to complete the paperwork, do your reliability, splashdown, monte carlo, FMECA, risk of death calcs and analysis etc.

If such a project is to go ahead its going to require significant funding and dedicated volunteers to happen, assuming we could get SLASO licensing which is required regardless of the continent we fly from.

And as for slipping a rocket past that imaginary line in the sky, the individual fine for an unlicensed launch is 670 penalty units, or $102,000 per person! :shock:
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Re: Thunda Stats

Postby cryoscum » Wed Mar 25, 2015 6:55 pm

All very true, Simon, but nonetheless something to aspire to in a few years! I reckon we need to bust 100k' first, however.
And we need MANY MANY more L3's and MANY MANY more high altitude flights! I really want to see multiple people busting 50k' in the next year. We have EVERYTHING we need to do that!

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Re: Thunda Stats

Postby october sky » Wed Mar 25, 2015 8:05 pm

Simon, you have clearly done your home work on this. But as they say every journey starts with the first step.

That said, what Marty and Nic said is the smart way to do it. Many would have to get some high altitude experience which will then help in the build process.

Sponsors would be a must.
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Re: Thunda Stats

Postby ROCKet STAR » Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:28 am

Indeed a tricky situation. I don't think for a second you could get away with claiming "oops, we went too high". I have looked into it in the past and believe that possibly the best way forward would be for exceptions to be put in place based on the Norwegian equivalent of the space act. Their legislation specifically makes an exception for sub-orbital sounding rockets (presumably due to the presence of the Andoya Rocket Range).
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Re: Thunda Stats

Postby jase » Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:38 am

cryoscum wrote:All very true, Simon, but nonetheless something to aspire to in a few years! I reckon we need to bust 100k' first, however.


I'd agree with that - proves that whoever takes it on is technically capable and competent of high alt flying. As Simon knows all too well, it's hard enough just leaving the pad sometimes :P

Chris, my half-arsed point is not so much about breaking the rules but more-or-less designing the project so that it is outside the scope of the rules. Andoya and Wallops and the like I think benefit from having vast recovery area, ie: ocean. It seems to me to be the case that the main concern with this endeavor would be safe recovery within a pre-determined 'cylinder'.

I agree that exceptions would be the best way forward, there are provision in the Space Act for research/educational purposes IIRC?

If you could incorporate a 'legitimate' reason for attempting to place said object that high in the sky, say atmospheric sampling, taking temperature readings...etc etc... those exceptions could potentially come into play?

[edit - yep, what Marty said too! LOL, I need to read more...]
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